Ecumenical Dialogue - Catholic

If you want to know who corrupts the Christian faith - Protestant or Catholics - take a look at other ancient churches. Ancient - all the way to the 5th century, and earlier. These churches have had independent existence, some for 1500 years, some for 1000 years.

Many Protestants are unware of these ancient churches.

I assure you, whatever "Roman" Catholic Church has, all these ancient churches also have, up to 90-95 % overlapping each other. And these "Roman" distinctives the Protestant churches do not have. They are their "blind spot" because they are invisible to most of them.

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...John Paul has written of the Ancient Eastern Churches:

"Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ's Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each." (This from Orientale Lumen.)

The Catholic position is that the ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is part of the heritage of the Church. (In context, John Paul is writing about the various Orthodox Churches...both Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian.)...

Most Protestant apologists never factor in the Eastern Churches when they go on the offense against Rome. Roman "distinctives" are sometimes attacked as later developments when many of these so-called "distinctives" have their parallel (or equal) in the theology of the various Eastern Churches. This tendency is what I call "the Eastern blind spot in Protestant apologetics."

If the various Churches which diverged in the early and mid-fifth centuries all maintain an extremely high Eucharistic theology (transformation of the elements and Eucharist as sacrifice), Apostolic Succession, a high view of Marian doctrines (intercession, Dormition/Assumption, purity of the Theotokos), intercession of saints, etc., doesn't that speak to what the historic catholic (note the small "c") faith holds?

Posted by: Dave Brown at June 14, 2004 01:20 AM

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...My point again is to get away from the polemical "Rome has corrupted the Catholic faith," by pointing out that much of what Rome teaches is also taught by these ancient Eastern Churches. For example, I still remember the surprise I had when an Eastern Orthodox friend (a member of the OCA) and I attended a Coptic Orthodox Liturgy. We were the only 2 non-Egyptian people there but the priest started chanting much of the Liturgy in English for our benefit. After the consecration with its extremely high view of the Eucharist (I've quoted some of this under the Sacramentology section of this blog in response to one of Kevin's posts), the priest commemorated several saints...Here was the continuation of that Church of Alexandria that did not accept Chalcedon (AD 451). It had a highly developed Marian devotion, high view of the Eucharist (Eucharist as sacrifice, bread and wine *changed* into the Body and Blood and worshipped by the people), intercession of saints, etc., etc. And this ancient Church of Alexandria was one that neither my OCA friend nor myself were in communion with...

I realized then that the version of Church history I'd been fed in my Protestant years (the so-called Roman "inventions") had no basis in reality.

Posted by: Dave Brown at June 14, 2004 07:25 AM

http://www.reformedcatholicism.com/archives/000141.htm

Religion Today Summaries

Tuesday, October 12, 2004

Debate Over Embryonic Stem-cell Research Continues

AgapePress

A Christian medial group is condemning a major stem-cell organization, saying it is trying to hide the truth from the public. Dr. David Stevens of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations is upset over the attempt to hide the truth in the debate over embryonic stem-cell research. "The International Society for Stem Cell Research is trying to mislead the public and the media by actually changing the terms used in describing cloning," Stevens explains. "In fact, they're recommending [that their members abstain from using] the term 'cloning' ... and talk about 'nuclear transfer' or 'somatic cell nuclear transfer' when you're writing in a journal or in the popular media." Dr. Stevens says this is a blatant attempt at verbal engineering in order to bring about social engineering and make people less sensitive to the taking of unborn human life. In an interesting side note, the ISSCR also suggests its members refrain from using the term "therapeutic" -- as in "therapeutic cloning" -- because, like "cloning," the term is misleading. In a statement to ISSCR members, the group states it is "far too early to predict therapeutic uses" of cloning. "[N]aming a technique for its hoped outcome," ISSCR states, "may inadvertently offer premature hope to desperate patients and families."

# posted by Matthew Tan Yew Hock @ 2:43 AM 0 comments

hi no name,

Just to add some core Christian beliefs:

Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man; in the Bible, he calls himself the Son of God, and the Son of Man; he claims to be the Messiah-King anticipated by the Jews in the Old Testament; he comes as a Saviour of all men; Salvation is through faith by grace alone; "through" faith means works of faith must be present, and the faith that works by charity is what counts for salvation. Salvation is accomplished for the whole world through the shedding of his blood on the Cross. Faith is the beginning of salvation, and faith itself is a gift of God. Therefore, it is profitable to pray to God for this gift of faith.

These beliefs are adhered to by all Christian groups, though some may express it in different words. Some Protestants may express it this way: salvation (or justification) is by faith alone (without works, or as if works do not count). What they normally mean is that good works follow faith, and good works are evidence of real faith. Catholics normally do not say "faith alone", because it is very misleading. We say, salvation is by faith AND works, together, and not to be separated. (Not by faith alone; and not by works alone; both faith and works come by God's grace).

~~~
Glory be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Matthew Tan Yew Hock

----- Original Message -----

From: Matthew Tan Yew Hock

To: catholicact@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:54 AM

Subject: Re: [catholicACT] RE: Invisible Church - "I can worship God at home"; "Me and Jesus"

hi,

The writer Tim Gallant is a reformed Protestant. His criticism is aimed at the Protestant believers in general, many of them believe in the so-called "invisible church" made up of "true believers". They believe that as long as you truly believe in Christ, you belong to this "invisible church", regardless of your denomination; conversely, if one is a non-believer, then one does not belong to this "invisible church". So, his criticism is aimed at worshippers who claim to be "true believers", who choose not to adhere to any church, viewing it not necessary for Christian life and salvation.

The article is posted by Dave Armstrong on his blog site. Let me re-submit Dave's comment:

Another of my series of posts designed to show the significant "common ground" that Catholics and many of the more thoughtful and reflective Protestants (particularly of the Reformed variety) have; in this instance, pertaining to the nature of the Church. The following excerpts come from Reformed pastor Tim Gallant's sermon: Ephesians 2.19-22: "God's New Temple Under Construction"

Dave's purpose is to draw attention that there are Protestants (particularly the Reformed) who hold the Catholic theology that the Church of Christ is first and foremost visible, though we may agree that there is also an invisible, spiritual dimension. For Catholics, belonging to the Church is necessary; the sacraments (Baptism, Eucharist, Penance, etc.) of the Church are also necessary for sanctification and salvation. Dave is an ecumenical Catholic. That means, he seeks to foster Christian unity, and to do that, one needs to understand the Protestant theology and mentality in order to dialogue meaningfully with them.

Catholicact is an ecumenical forum. An article like this will be of interest to many readers of this forum.

I refer to your statement, "Until I am able to forgive and forget my sins..." It appears that you do not fall within the description of the original writer: "... I know that I'm saved...I don't need a church telling me what to do...".

Believers of Christ (Catholics and Protestants) do not normally say "I forgive my sins".

God forgives our sins, when we believe and trust in him, through faith in Jesus Christ, and this faith is followed through by receiving Baptism. You do not have to wait until you can forgive or forget your sins - in fact, you should not wait for that, and you do not even have to think about forgiving and forgetting your own sins. God's forgiveness is what you need, not you forgiving yourself - for salvation and Christian life, which formally begin at Baptism, and continue throughout one's life time by receiving the sacraments, prayer and worship, and living in good conscience.

You are at the stage of preparing yourself to receive Christ, and God will help you and fulfull your desire. May we all pray for you....

Moses' God and Christian God is one and the same. During the time of Moses, there was not a full revelation of God. When Jesus came, he taught his disciples that he himself was God, the "I AM" that Moses worshipped.

Jesus gave us the FULL revelation. And we understand the ONE God to consist of three Persons (or Beings) : Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Trinity). In other words, the Father is God, the Son Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God. And all three are ONE God, not three gods. This is the fundamental Christian belief, and it is through faith that we believe.

Yes, the Bible reveals the God of Moses, and the religion of the Jews - in the Old Testament. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are revealed in the New Testament.

You can get a Bible from many bookshops, Christian and secular. Of course, as Catholics, we recommend a Catholic Bible, which we believe is the FULL Bible, and it includes the deuterocanonical books.

An easily accessible place to buy a bible is the bookshop in Novena Church. The best time to buy is Saturday, because it is open throughout the day on Saturday (until around 8 pm). Any Catholic bible will do for starter. Choose one that you find easy to read. I find the "Ignatius - The Holy Bible - Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition" to be easy-to-read. Normally only Catholic bookshop sells Catholic Bibles.

I strongly recommend that you attend an RCIA class, or Alpha Course, at any Catholic Church. And come and join the ACT talks.



~~~
Glory be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Matthew Tan Yew Hock

----- Original Message -----

From: no name

To: catholicact@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 5:18 PM

Subject: [catholicACT] RE: Invisible Church - "I can worship God at home"; "Me and Jesus"

Hi
I am refering to the article mentioned <<Invisible Church - "I can
worship God at home"; "Me and Jesus">>

Entitled: Reformed Protestants Take on the "Invisible Church"
We live in a time when even those who call themselves Christians
have given themselves over to a very extreme individualism and all
the sloppy thinking that that entails. Baptism is not seen as
necessary. The Church is not seen as necessary. Salvation is
understood as a personal, invisible encounter between the detached,
individual soul, and God. Church is at best a support, something
helpful to boost our faith, a place where we can learn things that
we have difficulty learning at home. In other words, going to church
is simply pragmatic - it's helpful.


Hi I believe this paragraph has negative tone set in its phrases
such as extreme individualism and all sloppy thinking. The paragraph
start to classify and categorise me as a reformed protestant. Why
the anger?

As I am still starting to know more about the God, I find myself
unfit to pray under his household of Saints(church). Until I am able
to forgive and forget my sins, I cannot be with my family yet. I
believe God will let me know when is the right time.

I just feel excited by the people who are excited about knowing God.
In the meantime, I try to learn more about God first.

Can anyone tell me if Moses' God is the same as Jesus' God? Don't
confuse a simple question by denominating God into Trinity. Thanks.
By the way, does Catholic or Protestant(as u call them) Bible record
moses and hebrew belief? If so, where can I buy the bible and what
is the name of the bible.


My own Quote: I believe I live on the world for a reason. A reason
created by God.