Sunday, October 24, 2004
Fw: [catholicACT] post purgatory dialogue
----- Original Message from another forum writer and friend Matthew Tan Kim Huat -----
From: Matthew Tan
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [catholicACT] post purgatory dialogue
God bless! Kelvin Chia had given many biblical references on the concept of purgatory. U can't find the word 'Purgatory' (neither can one find 'Trinity' in scripture) in the scripture as this word has a Latin root of purgatorium. However, the Septuagint scripture which was used by Jesus Lord and His apostles, and St. Paul, etc. was written in Greek includes 1 & 2 Maccabees and the concept of praying for the dead is so vivid and undeniable. The fine point is Jesus Christ and the Apostles were fully aware of the Maccabees, and the Jewish Prayers for the Dead.
So for Protestants who accept only the Hebrew canon (Martin Luther finally deleted 7 O.T. books including the Maccabees against the explicit warning in Rev 22:18~19 "18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."), the purgatory concept (of 2 Mac 12:43~46) accepted by all Jews of even today would be entirely foreign to them. So any notion of purgatory is an almost impossible doctrine.
Similarly, any reference to Early Church Fathers' writings would be a waste of time when discussing purgatory with many Protestants as they have accepted the traditions of the teachings, oral or written, from only their prophets, elders or pastors.
2 See http://www.envoymagazine.com/planetenvoy/special-PurgatoryEmergencyRoom.htm to understand why Protestants typically reject purgatory concept bcos of several "important" Hebrew verses:
Heb 9:27~28 "27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. "
Heb 10:10 "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Heb 10:14 "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."
For them, these verses fully ruled out any concept of extra need to purge one of any stain of sins. Kelvin had listed out the various biblical verses supporting the concept of purgatory. This means that there is definitely the danger of sticking to certain verses for doctrinal acceptance without biblical references to other seemingly 'contradictory' statements by Jesus and His apostles and St. Paul. [Do not even discuss the writings of Early Church Fathers as they could not accept extra-biblical sources and as they treat them as having their personal opinions.]
3 So how to present purgatory doctrine to those who reject:
a. the 7 original O.T. books of the Septuagint Greek Scripture as used by Jesus and Apostles and,
b. the writings of the Early Church Fathers?
Answers in additions to Kelvin's notes:
a. Show that Jesus and His Apostles and St. Paul, and even the disciples (some of the Early Church Fathers) of the disciples of the Apostles accepted and used the Septuagint. U need to know history of the orthodox Jewish Council in Jamnia in A.D. 90-95 (not acceptable by the Jewish Diaspora of Alexandria and even the Ethopian Jews of today, and the Hebrew Canon only confirmed in the 6th century by the rabbis. Then stress on 2 Mac 12:43~46.
See http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/Purgator.htm: "The Jewish people, therefore, believed in prayer for the dead (whether or not this book is scriptural - Protestants deny that it is). Jesus Christ did not correct this belief, as He surely would have done if it were erroneous (see Matthew 5:22,25-26, 12:32, Luke 12:58-59, 16:9,19-31 below). When our Lord and Savior talks about the afterlife, He never denies the fact that there is a third state, and the overall evidence of His utterances in this regard strongly indicates that He accepted the existence of purgatory."
b. read ex-fundamentalist David B. Currie in his book 'Born Fundamentalist Born Again Catholic' Pg131~134. He brilliantly discusses:
- 1 Cor 15:29 (as mentioned by Kelvin) "Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?" "Without purgatory, what could possibly be gained by doing anything for dead? Their destiny is unalterable. The uninterrupted teaching of the Church has been that our prayers do benefit dead Christians." Pg133
- Mt 5:8 ""Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." Only pure Christians will directly go to heaven. But most of us have some minor defects or some of us may not allow God to fully purify us of the effects of sin during our earthly sojourn. Guilt forgiven but "imperfection, warts, and cracks on his soul remain. So what happen then as in Rev 21:27 "But nothing unclean shall enter it"? So why can't God who loves us, "less than perfectly pure", created purgatory to cleanse us before we proceed to heaven? See Pg 132. - Mt 12:32 "And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." "Without purgatory, the last portion of Jesus' 'the age to come' statement seems frivolous." Pg134.
- Heb 12:32 "and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect," 'Firstborn' are those who are saints; they go directly to heaven. 'Made perfect' are those who needs to undergo purification process of 'purgatory'.
- Lk 12:42~48 "v48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating." This group of persons deserve light discipline (purgatory).-
- 1 Pet 3:18~20 "18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water." There is a 3rd place (purgatory though not specifically mentioned) as originally taught by the teaching Church.
- 1 Cor 5:5 " you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Paul condemns a man living in sin with his step-mother. Yet he affirmed the man saved at judgement day! Meaning purgatory purification.
Above 6 quotes are not mentioned by Kelvin but are examined by David Currie.
c. Refer to http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm article by James Akin "For every historic Protestant will admit that our sinning in this life does not continue into heaven. In fact, they will be quite insistent that although our sanctification is not complete in this life, it will be completed (instantaneously, they say) as soon as this life is over. But that is what purgatory is! -- the final sanctification, the purification. Thus it is permissible to say that many Protestants believe in purgatory without even realizing it."
d. Refer to http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS6.HTM weblinks by Dave Armstrong
e. Further explanation by http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/Purgator.htm on Phi 2:10-11 "10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." and Rev 5:3,13 "3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,". a If God refuses to receive prayer, praise and worship from the unrepentant sinner (as shown in :Psalm 66:18, Proverbs 1:28-30, Isaiah 1:15, 59:2, Jeremiah 6:20, Amos 5:21-24, Micah 3:4, Malachi 1:10, John 9:31, Hebrews 10:38), why would He permit the damned (under the earth) to undertake this practice? Furthermore, if God does not compel human beings to follow Him and to enjoy His presence for eternity contrary to their free will, then it seems that He would not - as far as we can tell from Scripture - compel them to praise Him, as this would be meaningless, if not repulsive."
Matthew Tan,
The Good News Mission,
Evangelistic Mission to bring Dr. Jesus Christ, Savior & Lord, to everyone
we meet, & let them experience the Omnipresent Healing Touch of Jesus
Christ, & experience personal transformation
The Good News Mission,
Evangelistic Mission to bring Dr. Jesus Christ, Savior & Lord, to everyone
we meet, & let them experience the Omnipresent Healing Touch of Jesus
Christ, & experience personal transformation
----- Original Message -----
From: "dchia11" <dchia11@singnet.com.sg>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 4:44 PM
Subject: [catholicACT] post purgatory dialogue
> After last Friday's talk on Purgatory, I tried out "after-death
> purification" idea on Protestant friend. No it did not work.
>
> 1. Jesus has already attained for us salvation and so after death the
> soul of the Christian will enjoy eternal live with God in Heaven.
>
> 2. Our sins has already been forgiven, hence no need for purification.
>
> I accept the concept of purgatory. Problem is my conviction,
> persuasion and oratorical skills is still not enough for me to share
> my believes with my non-Catholic friends. The other point is that if
> they think that there is no need for purification, then that already
> negates any need for a place or state called purgatory.
>
> *********
> On page 2 of the notes, St. Jerome considered Mic 7:8-9 a clear proof
> of purgatory.
>
> If the prophet Micah was refering to God's judgement of Isreal and
> Judah, what has that got to do with purgatory?
> **********
> Is the City of God & Handbook on Faith, Hope and Charity authored by
> Augustine?
>
> What books are written by Martin Luther that you would recommend?
>
> Happy holidays,
> Dorothy
> purification" idea on Protestant friend. No it did not work.
>
> 1. Jesus has already attained for us salvation and so after death the
> soul of the Christian will enjoy eternal live with God in Heaven.
>
> 2. Our sins has already been forgiven, hence no need for purification.
>
> I accept the concept of purgatory. Problem is my conviction,
> persuasion and oratorical skills is still not enough for me to share
> my believes with my non-Catholic friends. The other point is that if
> they think that there is no need for purification, then that already
> negates any need for a place or state called purgatory.
>
> *********
> On page 2 of the notes, St. Jerome considered Mic 7:8-9 a clear proof
> of purgatory.
>
> If the prophet Micah was refering to God's judgement of Isreal and
> Judah, what has that got to do with purgatory?
> **********
> Is the City of God & Handbook on Faith, Hope and Charity authored by
> Augustine?
>
> What books are written by Martin Luther that you would recommend?
>
> Happy holidays,
> Dorothy
