Friday, July 28, 2006
Christian Mission Has Political Agenda?
Reply shanhuang #61
I am still trying to get used to this forum - certain posts in this thread are not accessible at one time, and some other posts are not accessible at other time.
Christian Zionism is the belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Greater Israel, in their eyes, is a necessary prerequisite for the return of Jesus to reign on Earth, even if this meant bloody wars.
even if this meant bloody wars - If this is it, then I must agree with you it is evil.
This belief is commonly, though not exclusively, associated with evangelical Protestants around the world.
According to an expert on Christian Zionism, the US Christian population is about 1/3 Catholics, 1/3 mainline Protestants, and 1/3 Evangelicals.
Christian Zionism is the branch of Pre-millennial Dispensationalism, which is the theology adopted by most of the Protestant Fundamentalists. And Fundamentalism is a branch within the larger Evangelicals group. It is not as big and as you fear. Though no doubt there are many in the Bush administration who are staunchly pro-Israel, and some of them may be Christian Zionists.
This "Back to Jerusalem" movement is one of the Christian zionist movements
So far, I see no evidence of this. Back to Jerusalem is a Chinese Christian vision, not an organization.
it's evil because they have a clear goal to get 400 millions of Chinese converted
To get someone converted to Christianity in itself is no evil.
and to use Chinese to fight muslims
I see no evidence of this. They are just wanting to complete the missionary work in the stretch of land from Myanmar/Thailand/China to Central/South Asia to Middle East to Jerusalem where Christianity started. They see Christianity as starting from Jerusalem, spreading in a general Westward direction to Europe, then to US, then to China; Back to Jerusalem is to continue this Westward advance.
the so called "Chinese Christian crusade" -- bloody religious war
You may have misunderstood what you read. The term crusade in Christian circles is frequently used to mean mission work, not religious war. There is not single Christian organization I know of today that advocate religious war. American Christians who supported the Iraq War believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and feared that Saddam Hussein would deliver them to terrorists. It is not religious war.
to change China's political landscape in the name of "democracy", "freedom" and "peace"
That may be true -- these are Western political ideals, and Chinese Christians may be influenced into accepting these ideals when they come into contact with Westerners (not just Christians). These are not evil things in themselves.
use Christianity to change China's political landscape in the name of "democracy", "freedom" and "peace"
Please do not confuse Christianity with Western political ideals. Democracy and freedom are practiced in many non-Christian countries. At least Hong Kong, Taiwan Korea, Japan, India, Thailand believe in these.
so to dominate the world by Christiniaty.
Christians seek to preach the Gospel to the entire world and to baptize as many people as possible into the Christian faith. This is in obedience to the Great Commission given by Jesus Christ. In so doing, Christians do not seek to dominate the world. We do not believe that the majority of the worlds population will become Christians. Of course, certain Christian individuals may have political aspirations and ambitions, and they may organized themselves as political bodies to achieve certain political or social goals. But this is not the mission of the Christian Church.
You can't deny this is an ORGANIZED POLITICAL MOVEMENT IN RELIGIOUS NAME.
I deny the assertions that Christians seek to dominate the world, and to make Chinese fight the Muslims in religious war. I can only agree that most Christians are in favour of democracy and freedom. But these are separate things.
Who wouldnt you want to see China evolve in its own way into democratic form of Government and enjoying more political and religious freedom? This is just a political ideal with no time table. Let China decide on its own time table.
Talk about world domination.
Actually, most Christian groups (including the Christian Zionists, Fundamentalists and Evangelicals, Catholics, mainline Protestant denominations) believe that the world will one day be under the rule of an anti-Christ.
Why US is so unconditionally support Isreal? 1) The zionist Christians' grass root support has largely controlled US congress, 2) the zionist elites have controlled the Whitehouse and Pentagon (see the picture). Plus, the overwhelming financial and media power in Jewish hands
I dispute this analysis. The Christian Zionists have very limited influence, as a Christian theology and as well as a political ideology.
By the term Christian Zionists, I refer to your own definition above.
Why US is so unconditionally support Isreal?
I propose the following reasons:
1. the overwhelming financial and media power in Jewish hands
2. Israel shares the same political values as the US - democracy, freedom, human rights
3. US sympathy for Israel as a consequence of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism throughout the centuries
4. Christian belief from the Bible that God will bless those who bless Abraham (and his descendants, i.e. Israel), and curse those who curse Abraham (and Israel). To bless does not mean to support evil things done by Israel. Christians who wish to to bless Israel are no Christian Zionists if they do not support the evil things done by Israel. Unfortunately, there are some who are the so-called Christian Zionists who support evil things done by Israel.
5. US perception that Israel was constantly under threat from Arab nations who did not want to recognise Israels existence as a nation (in 1948, when Israel declared independence, it was attacked by all the surrounding Arab nations, including Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, etc.)
6.US perception that Israel was constantly under threat from Arab terrorist groups today (Hamas, Hizbollah, Iran - these groups call for Israel to be wiped out of the map).
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Thursday, July 13, 2006
I call my God "Jesus" and I call him "Christ". Of course I also call him "Lord".
Mr/Ms Seneca,
I am from Singapore, where today most people are educated in English, and learning Chinese as a Second Language.
May I give my comment to your ?
Mr/Ms Seneca: "I don't need to ber reminded where I am; I don't think this is "culture" when people show disrespect by deliberately ignoring my wish to be addressed correctly, get it?"
The "culture" so mentioned is that people generally are not bothered whether they are called by firstname or surname. Have you understood the culture?
If people are not bothered, then they are not showing disrespect by intention, "deliberately ignoring your wish". But if you have offended them by your judgemental attitude, that is another story.
Mr/Ms Seneca: "What are you "learning" in your "English" classes? 8000 English vocables? And nothing in terms of civilised behaviour?"
What is so civilised about about calling people "Mister/Ms Surname"? I call my God "Jesus" and I call him "Christ". Of course, I also call him "Lord". And I learned all these from Westerners. And I have learned to call the other biblical figures "Peter", "Paul", "Mary", "David", "Abraham", and so on... Thanks to the hundreds of Western preachers that came by, and to the dozens of Christian writers. At least the Catholics taught me "Saint Peter", "Saint Paul","Mother Mary", "Pope Benedict", "Pope John Paul". But I did not learn these from the Protestant preachers and writers.
Oh...yes...when I was a child learning English, I knew nothing of the "Ms" salutation. I knew only of "Miss" and "Madam". But somehow the "civilised behaviour" changed...
Enough said about "civilised behaviour".
In Singapore school systems, we learned a lot of things Western. But sorry to disappoint you Mr/Ms Seneca, we did not learn much about Western social manners -- although some enthusiastic Westernised teachers might try to teach sort of things. Guess what might happen? The bolder students would tell them to his face -- "But that's not our culture! We are Asians. The Japanese are not like that. Not the Vietnamese. Not the Koreans. Not the Malays, Indonesians, Thais, Indians.... "
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I am from Singapore, where today most people are educated in English, and learning Chinese as a Second Language.
May I give my comment to your ?
Mr/Ms Seneca: "I don't need to ber reminded where I am; I don't think this is "culture" when people show disrespect by deliberately ignoring my wish to be addressed correctly, get it?"
The "culture" so mentioned is that people generally are not bothered whether they are called by firstname or surname. Have you understood the culture?
If people are not bothered, then they are not showing disrespect by intention, "deliberately ignoring your wish". But if you have offended them by your judgemental attitude, that is another story.
Mr/Ms Seneca: "What are you "learning" in your "English" classes? 8000 English vocables? And nothing in terms of civilised behaviour?"
What is so civilised about about calling people "Mister/Ms Surname"? I call my God "Jesus" and I call him "Christ". Of course, I also call him "Lord". And I learned all these from Westerners. And I have learned to call the other biblical figures "Peter", "Paul", "Mary", "David", "Abraham", and so on... Thanks to the hundreds of Western preachers that came by, and to the dozens of Christian writers. At least the Catholics taught me "Saint Peter", "Saint Paul","Mother Mary", "Pope Benedict", "Pope John Paul". But I did not learn these from the Protestant preachers and writers.
Oh...yes...when I was a child learning English, I knew nothing of the "Ms" salutation. I knew only of "Miss" and "Madam". But somehow the "civilised behaviour" changed...
Enough said about "civilised behaviour".
In Singapore school systems, we learned a lot of things Western. But sorry to disappoint you Mr/Ms Seneca, we did not learn much about Western social manners -- although some enthusiastic Westernised teachers might try to teach sort of things. Guess what might happen? The bolder students would tell them to his face -- "But that's not our culture! We are Asians. The Japanese are not like that. Not the Vietnamese. Not the Koreans. Not the Malays, Indonesians, Thais, Indians.... "
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
Wednesday, July 12, 2006
Liberal Christianity is paying for its sins
Liberal Christianity is paying for its sins
Out-of-the-mainstream beliefs about gay marriage and supposedly sexist doctrines are gutting old-line faiths.
The accelerating fragmentation of the strife-torn Episcopal Church USA, in which several parishes and even a few dioceses are opting out of the church, isn't simply about gay bishops, the blessing of same-sex unions or the election of a woman as presiding bishop. It also is about the meltdown of liberal Christianity.
Embraced by the leadership of all the mainline Protestant denominations, as well as large segments of American Catholicism, liberal Christianity has been hailed by its boosters for 40 years as the future of the Christian church.
Instead, as all but a few die-hards now admit, all the mainline churches and movements within churches that have blurred doctrine and softened moral precepts are demographically declining and, in the case of the Episcopal Church, disintegrating.
It is not entirely coincidental that at about the same time that Episcopalians, at their general convention in Columbus, Ohio, were thumbing their noses at a directive from the worldwide Anglican Communion that they "repent" of confirming the openly gay Bishop V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire three years ago, the Presbyterian Church USA, at its general assembly in Birmingham, Ala., was turning itself into the laughingstock of the blogosphere by tacitly approving alternative designations for the supposedly sexist Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Among the suggested names were "Mother, Child and Womb" and "Rock, Redeemer and Friend." Moved by the spirit of the Presbyterian revisionists, Beliefnet blogger Rod Dreher held a "Name That Trinity" contest. Entries included "Rock, Scissors and Paper" and "Larry, Curly and Moe."
Following the Episcopalian lead, the Presbyterians also voted to give local congregations the freedom to ordain openly cohabiting gay and lesbian ministers and endorsed the legalization of medical marijuana. (The latter may be a good idea, but it is hard to see how it falls under the theological purview of a Christian denomination.)
The Presbyterian Church USA is famous for its 1993 conference, cosponsored with the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and other mainline churches, in which participants "reimagined" God as "Our Maker Sophia" and held a feminist-inspired "milk and honey" ritual designed to replace traditional bread-and-wine Communion.
As if to one-up the Presbyterians in jettisoning age-old elements of Christian belief, the Episcopalians at Columbus overwhelmingly refused even to consider a resolution affirming that Jesus Christ is Lord. When a Christian church cannot bring itself to endorse a bedrock Christian theological statement repeatedly found in the New Testament, it is not a serious Christian church. It's a Church of What's Happening Now, conferring a feel-good imprimatur on whatever the liberal elements of secular society deem permissible or politically correct.
You want to have gay sex? Be a female bishop? Change God's name to Sophia? Go ahead. The just-elected Episcopal presiding bishop, Katharine Jefferts Schori, is a one-woman combination of all these things, having voted for Robinson, blessed same-sex couples in her Nevada diocese, prayed to a female Jesus at the Columbus convention and invited former Newark, N.J., bishop John Shelby Spong, famous for denying Christ's divinity, to address her priests.
When a church doesn't take itself seriously, neither do its members. It is hard to believe that as recently as 1960, members of mainline churches � Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans and the like � accounted for 40% of all American Protestants. Today, it's more like 12% (17 million out of 135 million). Some of the precipitous decline is due to lower birthrates among the generally blue-state mainliners, but it also is clear that millions of mainline adherents (and especially their children) have simply walked out of the pews never to return. According to the Hartford Institute for Religious Research, in 1965, there were 3.4 million Episcopalians; now, there are 2.3 million. The number of Presbyterians fell from 4.3 million in 1965 to 2.5 million today. Compare that with 16 million members reported by the Southern Baptists.
When your religion says "whatever" on doctrinal matters, regards Jesus as just another wise teacher, refuses on principle to evangelize and lets you do pretty much what you want, it's a short step to deciding that one of the things you don't want to do is get up on Sunday morning and go to church.
It doesn't help matters that the mainline churches were pioneers in ordaining women to the clergy, to the point that 25% of all Episcopal priests these days are female, as are 29% of all Presbyterian pastors, according to the two churches. A causal connection between a critical mass of female clergy and a mass exodus from the churches, especially among men, would be difficult to establish, but is it entirely a coincidence? Sociologist Rodney Stark ("The Rise of Christianity") and historian Philip Jenkins ("The Next Christendom") contend that the more demands, ethical and doctrinal, that a faith places upon its adherents, the deeper the adherents' commitment to that faith. Evangelical and Pentecostal churches, which preach biblical morality, have no trouble saying that Jesus is Lord, and they generally eschew women's ordination. The churches are growing robustly, both in the United States and around the world.
Despite the fact that median Sunday attendance at Episcopal churches is 80 worshipers, the Episcopal Church, as a whole, is financially equipped to carry on for some time, thanks to its inventory of vintage real estate and huge endowments left over from the days (no more!) when it was the Republican Party at prayer. Furthermore, it has offset some of its demographic losses by attracting disaffected liberal Catholics and gays and lesbians. The less endowed Presbyterian Church USA is in deeper trouble. Just before its general assembly in Birmingham, it announced that it would eliminate 75 jobs to meet a $9.15-million budget cut at its headquarters, the third such round of job cuts in four years.
The Episcopalians have smells, bells, needlework cushions and colorfully garbed, Catholic-looking bishops as draws, but who, under the present circumstances, wants to become a Presbyterian?
Still, it must be galling to Episcopal liberals that many of the parishes and dioceses (including that of San Joaquin, Calif.) that want to pull out of the Episcopal Church USA are growing instead of shrinking, have live people in the pews who pay for the upkeep of their churches and don't have to rely on dead rich people. The 21-year-old Christ Church Episcopal in Plano, Texas, for example, is one of the largest Episcopal churches in the country. Its 2,200 worshipers on any given Sunday are about equal to the number of active Episcopalians in Jefferts Schori's entire Nevada diocese.
It's no surprise that Christ Church, like the other dissident parishes, preaches a very conservative theology. Its break from the national church came after Rowan Williams, archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Anglican Communion, proposed a two-tier membership in which the Episcopal Church USA and other churches that decline to adhere to traditional biblical standards would have "associate" status in the communion. The dissidents hope to retain full communication with Canterbury by establishing oversight by non-U.S. Anglican bishops.
As for the rest of the Episcopalians, the phrase "deck chairs on the Titanic" comes to mind. A number of liberal Episcopal websites are devoted these days to dissing Peter Akinola, outspoken primate of the Anglican diocese of Nigeria, who, like the vast majority of the world's 77 million Anglicans reported by the Anglican Communion, believes that "homosexual practice" is "incompatible with Scripture" (those words are from the communion's 1998 resolution at the Lambeth conference of bishops). Akinola might have the numbers on his side, but he is now the Voldemort � no, make that the Karl Rove � of the U.S. Episcopal world. Other liberals fume over a feeble last-minute resolution in Columbus calling for "restraint" in consecrating bishops whose lifestyle might offend "the wider church" � a resolution immediately ignored when a second openly cohabitating gay man was nominated for bishop of Newark.
So this is the liberal Christianity that was supposed to be the Christianity of the future: disarray, schism, rapidly falling numbers of adherents, a collapse of Christology and national meetings that rival those of the Modern Language Assn. for their potential for cheap laughs. And they keep telling the Catholic Church that it had better get with the liberal program � ordain women, bless gay unions and so forth � or die. Sure.
Tan Yew Hock (Matthew)
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Friday, July 07, 2006
Matt 7:1-6 Judge not, that you may not be judged.
To: catholicact@yahoogroups.com
From: Send an Instant Message "inchildlight"
<inchildlight@yahoo.com> Add to Address BookAdd to
Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 16:41:16 -0000
Subject: [catholicACT] Re: Judging others
Hey thanks Andrew and Kelvin for your feedback :)
Someone just gave me another verse a few minutes ago
to add and
support yours:)
John7:24
"Do not keep judging according to appearances; let
your judgement be
according to what is right."
PEACE to ALL :)
Mary
--- In catholicact@yahoogroups.com, Kelvin Chia
<kelvchia@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Andrew
>
> Maybe you're also thinking of 1 Sam 16:7: "And the
Lord said to
Samuel:
> Look not on his countenance, nor on the height of
his stature:
because I
> have rejected him, nor do I judge according to the
look of man:
for man
> seeth those things that appear, but the Lord
beholdeth the heart."
>
> God Bless!
>
> Kelvin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Kong" <andrewk@...>
> To: <catholicact@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 3:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [catholicACT] Re: Judging others
>
>
> I like to add that the Lord judges the heart while
man judges the
deed.
> (somewhere in Luke about the pharisee and the tax
collector
praying at
> the temple.)
>
> Ak
> On 05-Jul-06, at PM 11:30, Kelvin Chia wrote:
>
> > Hi, Mary
> >
> > How about Matt 7:1-6?
> >
> > 1 ¶ Judge not, that you may not be judged.
> > 2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be
judged: and
with what
> > measure you mete, it shall be measured to you
again.
> > 3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy
brother's eye; and
seest
> > not
> > the beam that is in thy own eye?
> > 4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast
the mote out
of thy
> > eye;
> > and behold a beam is in thy own eye?
> > 5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of
thy own eye,
and then
> > shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy
brother's eye.
> > 6 Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither
cast ye your
pearls
> > before
> > swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their
feet, and
turning
> > upon
> > you, they tear you.
> >
> > cf. Luke 6:37-42
> >
> > God Bless!
> >
> > Kelvin
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "inchildlight" <inchildlight@...>
> > To: <catholicact@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 12:00 AM
> > Subject: [catholicACT] Re: Judging others
> >
> >
> >> Heya Thanks Kelvin! :)
> >>
> >> that's a good guide.
> >>
> >> I believe there's some Biblical support to that
as well...
> >> unfortunately I think I did not have a chance to
note it when I
read
> >> it and I can't find it now... Do you by any
chance have the
> >> records? :)
> >>
> >> Thanks :)
> >>
> >> God Bless! :)
> >> mary
> >>
> >> --- In catholicact@yahoogroups.com, Kelvin Chia
<kelvchia@>
wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi, Mary
> >>>
> >>> I believe the rule of thumb is that one may
judge actions
> >> (objective and
> >>> observable), but one should not judge intentions
(subjective
and
> >> internal).
> >>>
> >>> God Bless!
> >>>
> >>> Kelvin
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "inchildlight" <inchildlight@>
> >>> To: <catholicact@yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 12:34 AM
> >>> Subject: [catholicACT] Judging others
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hey Hi all....
> >>>>
> >>>> Anybody have any insights into the Biblical
passage "Do not
> >> judge and
> >>>> you will not be judge?"
> >>>>
> >>>> Remember reading somewhere about judging within
certain
> >> limits... but
> >>>> forgot what or where...
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers & God Bless All!
> >>>>
> >>>> mary
Tan Yew Hock (Matthew)
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Tuesday, July 04, 2006
Fwd: Re: [catholicACT] Re: ACT talks
--- In catholicact@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kong <andrewk@...> wrote:
Yes as a priestly people, we do offer up our sufferings as sacrifices
in union with the scarifice of the cross, ie at mass we participate
most fully when we do that, uniting ourselves in Christ on the cross,
to the Father in the Holy Spirit.
Andrew
On 03-Jul-06, at PM 01:32, micheline_fong wrote:
> The wikipedia article more or less answers my question. Thanks a lot.
>
> I thought that a priest by definition offers sacrifice. But in this
> case "priestly people" doesn't mean we offer up our own suffering
> etc as sacrifices to God, rather it means participation in the
> Eucharist?
>
> Micheline
Monday, July 03, 2006
Priestly Sacrifices - Our Pure Conscience and Devotion
your reasonable service.
1Pe 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Our Priestly Sacrifices: Our Conscience and Devotion
your reasonable service.
1Pe 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Tan Yew Hock (Matthew)
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Email: elearningstreams@gmail.com
"Evangelical", "Laymen are also priests"
In response to questions raised by micheline_fong on June 27, 2006.
Yes, the Pentecostals are consistently the fastest growing Christian group in the entire 20th century. They attracted a lot of Christians from "mainline" denominations too.
The term "Evangelicals" is also used by European Protestants who do not want to call themselves "Protestants".
We Catholics need not be afraid or feel shy to call ourselves "evangelicals" or "evangelical Catholics" or "Catholic Evangelicals". Don't give way to the Protestants as if they alone have monopolistic ownership over terms like "Christian", "Evangelicals", "Biblical", "Born-Again", "Saved", etc.
For different shades of the meaning of the word "Evangelical", check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism (Rich in content on this topic)
The term "Reformed" refers to the Christian tradition associated with or inherited from John Calvin, the 17th-Century Protestant Reformer.
"Lay people are also priests". This biblical belief is also taught by the Catholic Church, and is founded on 1 Peter 2:5,9:
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood...But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people".
This refers to the "universal priesthood" wherein all Christians are members of, as distinct from the "ministerial priesthood" belonging only to the clergy. 1 Peter 2:5,9 is a reference to the Old Testament "universal priesthood" found in Exo 19:6:
the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.""And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are
Read the Catechism:
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----- Original Message -----From: micheline_fongSent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:56 PMSubject: [catholicACT] ACT talksHi,
I attended the talk last Fri on "Understanding Our Separated
Brethren". For future talks, can the Pentecostal churches be
included too? I think they're pretty important since some of the
most active churches in S'pore are Pentecostal (City Harvest, New
Creation, FCBC etc). I think more people are converting to these
churches than the mainline ones.
Of course this will make the talk longer, but maybe you could have a
part 2 the following week.
I'm sorry I couldn't stay for the whole talk but I have 2 questions
to ask :
1. Still not very clear on what an "Evangelical" church is. From
what Jason said it seems it's a church that is not mainline, like
Baptist. But I think that there are Anglican churches that are
Evangelical (such as in Thomas Howard's book "Evangelical is not
enough"). Isn't the Anglican church considered a mainline church? Is
there a better definition? "Not mainline" can be anything. Do they
have a particular theology? I've been trying to find out for ages.
I've read conversion stories where the author says,"I knew I was
looking for a church that is both evangelical and Reformed..." but
have no idea what that means.
2. What does it mean when one says that lay people are also priests?
God bless
Micheline
Sunday, October 24, 2004
Biblical Overview of Penance, Purgatory & Indulgences
Fw: [catholicACT] post purgatory dialogue
----- Original Message from another forum writer and friend Matthew Tan Kim Huat -----
From: Matthew Tan
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [catholicACT] post purgatory dialogue
God bless! Kelvin Chia had given many biblical references on the concept of purgatory. U can't find the word 'Purgatory' (neither can one find 'Trinity' in scripture) in the scripture as this word has a Latin root of purgatorium. However, the Septuagint scripture which was used by Jesus Lord and His apostles, and St. Paul, etc. was written in Greek includes 1 & 2 Maccabees and the concept of praying for the dead is so vivid and undeniable. The fine point is Jesus Christ and the Apostles were fully aware of the Maccabees, and the Jewish Prayers for the Dead.
So for Protestants who accept only the Hebrew canon (Martin Luther finally deleted 7 O.T. books including the Maccabees against the explicit warning in Rev 22:18~19 "18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."), the purgatory concept (of 2 Mac 12:43~46) accepted by all Jews of even today would be entirely foreign to them. So any notion of purgatory is an almost impossible doctrine.
Similarly, any reference to Early Church Fathers' writings would be a waste of time when discussing purgatory with many Protestants as they have accepted the traditions of the teachings, oral or written, from only their prophets, elders or pastors.
2 See http://www.envoymagazine.com/planetenvoy/special-PurgatoryEmergencyRoom.htm to understand why Protestants typically reject purgatory concept bcos of several "important" Hebrew verses:
Heb 9:27~28 "27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. "
Heb 10:10 "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Heb 10:14 "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."
For them, these verses fully ruled out any concept of extra need to purge one of any stain of sins. Kelvin had listed out the various biblical verses supporting the concept of purgatory. This means that there is definitely the danger of sticking to certain verses for doctrinal acceptance without biblical references to other seemingly 'contradictory' statements by Jesus and His apostles and St. Paul. [Do not even discuss the writings of Early Church Fathers as they could not accept extra-biblical sources and as they treat them as having their personal opinions.]
3 So how to present purgatory doctrine to those who reject:
a. the 7 original O.T. books of the Septuagint Greek Scripture as used by Jesus and Apostles and,
b. the writings of the Early Church Fathers?
Answers in additions to Kelvin's notes:
a. Show that Jesus and His Apostles and St. Paul, and even the disciples (some of the Early Church Fathers) of the disciples of the Apostles accepted and used the Septuagint. U need to know history of the orthodox Jewish Council in Jamnia in A.D. 90-95 (not acceptable by the Jewish Diaspora of Alexandria and even the Ethopian Jews of today, and the Hebrew Canon only confirmed in the 6th century by the rabbis. Then stress on 2 Mac 12:43~46.
See http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/Purgator.htm: "The Jewish people, therefore, believed in prayer for the dead (whether or not this book is scriptural - Protestants deny that it is). Jesus Christ did not correct this belief, as He surely would have done if it were erroneous (see Matthew 5:22,25-26, 12:32, Luke 12:58-59, 16:9,19-31 below). When our Lord and Savior talks about the afterlife, He never denies the fact that there is a third state, and the overall evidence of His utterances in this regard strongly indicates that He accepted the existence of purgatory."
b. read ex-fundamentalist David B. Currie in his book 'Born Fundamentalist Born Again Catholic' Pg131~134. He brilliantly discusses:
- 1 Cor 15:29 (as mentioned by Kelvin) "Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?" "Without purgatory, what could possibly be gained by doing anything for dead? Their destiny is unalterable. The uninterrupted teaching of the Church has been that our prayers do benefit dead Christians." Pg133
- Mt 5:8 ""Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." Only pure Christians will directly go to heaven. But most of us have some minor defects or some of us may not allow God to fully purify us of the effects of sin during our earthly sojourn. Guilt forgiven but "imperfection, warts, and cracks on his soul remain. So what happen then as in Rev 21:27 "But nothing unclean shall enter it"? So why can't God who loves us, "less than perfectly pure", created purgatory to cleanse us before we proceed to heaven? See Pg 132. - Mt 12:32 "And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." "Without purgatory, the last portion of Jesus' 'the age to come' statement seems frivolous." Pg134.
- Heb 12:32 "and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect," 'Firstborn' are those who are saints; they go directly to heaven. 'Made perfect' are those who needs to undergo purification process of 'purgatory'.
- Lk 12:42~48 "v48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating." This group of persons deserve light discipline (purgatory).-
- 1 Pet 3:18~20 "18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water." There is a 3rd place (purgatory though not specifically mentioned) as originally taught by the teaching Church.
- 1 Cor 5:5 " you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Paul condemns a man living in sin with his step-mother. Yet he affirmed the man saved at judgement day! Meaning purgatory purification.
Above 6 quotes are not mentioned by Kelvin but are examined by David Currie.
c. Refer to http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm article by James Akin "For every historic Protestant will admit that our sinning in this life does not continue into heaven. In fact, they will be quite insistent that although our sanctification is not complete in this life, it will be completed (instantaneously, they say) as soon as this life is over. But that is what purgatory is! -- the final sanctification, the purification. Thus it is permissible to say that many Protestants believe in purgatory without even realizing it."
d. Refer to http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS6.HTM weblinks by Dave Armstrong
e. Further explanation by http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/Purgator.htm on Phi 2:10-11 "10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." and Rev 5:3,13 "3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,". a If God refuses to receive prayer, praise and worship from the unrepentant sinner (as shown in :Psalm 66:18, Proverbs 1:28-30, Isaiah 1:15, 59:2, Jeremiah 6:20, Amos 5:21-24, Micah 3:4, Malachi 1:10, John 9:31, Hebrews 10:38), why would He permit the damned (under the earth) to undertake this practice? Furthermore, if God does not compel human beings to follow Him and to enjoy His presence for eternity contrary to their free will, then it seems that He would not - as far as we can tell from Scripture - compel them to praise Him, as this would be meaningless, if not repulsive."
Matthew Tan,
The Good News Mission,
Evangelistic Mission to bring Dr. Jesus Christ, Savior & Lord, to everyone
we meet, & let them experience the Omnipresent Healing Touch of Jesus
Christ, & experience personal transformation
The Good News Mission,
Evangelistic Mission to bring Dr. Jesus Christ, Savior & Lord, to everyone
we meet, & let them experience the Omnipresent Healing Touch of Jesus
Christ, & experience personal transformation
----- Original Message -----
From: "dchia11" <dchia11@singnet.com.sg>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 4:44 PM
Subject: [catholicACT] post purgatory dialogue
> After last Friday's talk on Purgatory, I tried out "after-death
> purification" idea on Protestant friend. No it did not work.
>
> 1. Jesus has already attained for us salvation and so after death the
> soul of the Christian will enjoy eternal live with God in Heaven.
>
> 2. Our sins has already been forgiven, hence no need for purification.
>
> I accept the concept of purgatory. Problem is my conviction,
> persuasion and oratorical skills is still not enough for me to share
> my believes with my non-Catholic friends. The other point is that if
> they think that there is no need for purification, then that already
> negates any need for a place or state called purgatory.
>
> *********
> On page 2 of the notes, St. Jerome considered Mic 7:8-9 a clear proof
> of purgatory.
>
> If the prophet Micah was refering to God's judgement of Isreal and
> Judah, what has that got to do with purgatory?
> **********
> Is the City of God & Handbook on Faith, Hope and Charity authored by
> Augustine?
>
> What books are written by Martin Luther that you would recommend?
>
> Happy holidays,
> Dorothy
> purification" idea on Protestant friend. No it did not work.
>
> 1. Jesus has already attained for us salvation and so after death the
> soul of the Christian will enjoy eternal live with God in Heaven.
>
> 2. Our sins has already been forgiven, hence no need for purification.
>
> I accept the concept of purgatory. Problem is my conviction,
> persuasion and oratorical skills is still not enough for me to share
> my believes with my non-Catholic friends. The other point is that if
> they think that there is no need for purification, then that already
> negates any need for a place or state called purgatory.
>
> *********
> On page 2 of the notes, St. Jerome considered Mic 7:8-9 a clear proof
> of purgatory.
>
> If the prophet Micah was refering to God's judgement of Isreal and
> Judah, what has that got to do with purgatory?
> **********
> Is the City of God & Handbook on Faith, Hope and Charity authored by
> Augustine?
>
> What books are written by Martin Luther that you would recommend?
>
> Happy holidays,
> Dorothy
Bible Studies on the Purgatory
A deep penetrating study of Matthew 5:25-26, paying God that "righteousness" we owe him.
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004_10_10_socrates58_archive.html
Elaboration Upon One Biblical Argument for Purgatory (Matthew 5:25-26)
In my first book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, I cited Matthew 5:25-26 and then St. Francis de Sales' excellent commentary on it, in my chapter on purgatory. Here is that portion (pp. 129-130 of the current Sophia Institute Press edition, but the footnote numbers are different):
...
Matthew 5:25-26 [RSV] Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
(see also Luke 12:58-59)
St. Francis de Sales:
Origen, St. Cyprian, St. Hilary, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, and St. Augustine say that the way which is meant in the whilst thou art in the way [while you are going with him to court] is no other than the passage of the present life: the adversary [accuser] will be our own conscience, . . . as St. Ambrose expounds, and Bede, St. Augustine, St. Gregory [the Great], and St. Bernard. Lastly, the judge is without doubt Our Lord . . . The prison, again, is . . . the place of punishment in the other world, in which, as in a large jail, there are many buildings; one for those who are damned, which is as it were for criminals, the other for those in Purgatory, which is as it were for debt. The farthing, [penny] . . . are little sins and infirmities, as the farthing is the smallest money one can owe.
Now let us consider a little where this repayment . . . is to be made. And we find from most ancient Fathers that it is in Purgatory: Tertullian,11 Cyprian,12 Origen,13 . . . St. Ambrose,14 St. Jerome15 . . . Who sees not that in St. Luke the comparison is drawn, not from a murderer or some criminal, who can have no hope of escape, but from a debtor who is thrown into prison till payment, and when this is made is at once let out? This then is the meaning of Our Lord, that whilst we are in this world we should try by penitence and its fruits to pay, according to the
power which we have by the blood of the Redeemer, the penalty to which our sins have subjected us; since if we wait till death we shall not have such good terms in Purgatory, when we shall be treated with severity of justice.16
11 The Soul, 100,10.
12 Epistle 4,2.
13 Homily 35 on Luke 12.
14 Commentary on Luke 12.
15 Commentary on Matthew 5.
16 St. Francis de Sales, CON [The Catholic Controversy], 372-373.
...
1) First of all, there is an assumption by Jesus that it is possible to get out of this place: "you will never get out till . . . " This motif of being able to get out of debtor's prison is repeated by our Lord Jesus in Matt 18:30: ". . . put him in prison till he should pay the debt" (repeated in 18:34). This could not be said about hell at all, because no one can get out of hell. We wouldn't say of, e.g., a corpse in a casket: "he will never get out of there till . . . " To say such a thing presupposes the possibility of leaving the place. If one can't leave, it wouldn't be described in such a fashion. Therefore, if we apply the passage to the afterlife at all, it must refer to purgatory and not hell.
2) Secondly, purgatory is not all that "comforting." It is a place of punishment for temporal sins, and purging. We have hope, of course, because everyone there is saved ...
3) ...Jesus warning us to avoid this place ...
4) It can't apply to hell, either, because the "debts" are metaphorical for remaining sins on our soul. We don't get saved from hell by paying off our debts (in Catholic theology, by penance for temporal sins). We get out by means of the redeeming work of Jesus on the cross on our behalf. It is sheer mercy, not a mere debt-paying process (because none of us could ever pay off the debt in that case). This is good Catholic theology, too, I assure you. We don't gain salvation by our good works. That is the heresy of Pelagianism.
Jesus often uses the metaphor of "debt" for sins and the necessity of forgiveness (e.g., Mt 6:12-15, 18:23-35, Lk 7:36-50, 11:4). Therefore, it makes much more sense (granting these theological premises) that the passage refers to purgatory, since the "debts" are sins that we are still being purged of. We're not being punished eternally in this instance for the sins, but having them purged from us because we are already saved. That's why Jesus says that we can get out of the place or state. Again, we don't gain heaven and eternal life by paying off debts ourselves, because this would never be sufficient. But we can gain the entrance to heaven (having already been saved by the cross and God's mercy and forgiveness and election) by purging our sins entirely in purgatory by this painful process.
Jesus often uses the metaphor of "debt" for sins and the necessity of forgiveness (e.g., Mt 6:12-15, 18:23-35, Lk 7:36-50, 11:4). Therefore, it makes much more sense (granting these theological premises) that the passage refers to purgatory, since the "debts" are sins that we are still being purged of. We're not being punished eternally in this instance for the sins, but having them purged from us because we are already saved. That's why Jesus says that we can get out of the place or state. Again, we don't gain heaven and eternal life by paying off debts ourselves, because this would never be sufficient. But we can gain the entrance to heaven (having already been saved by the cross and God's mercy and forgiveness and election) by purging our sins entirely in purgatory by this painful process.
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia [a Protestant work], in its article on "Debt, Debtor" (vol. II, 814-815) states:
Debt and debtor are used in a moral sense also as indicating the obligation of a righteous life which we owe to God. To fall short in righteous living is to become a debtor. For this reason we pray, 'Forgive us our debts' (Mt 6:12).
Now, again, in Catholic theology, this is sensibly spoken of penance and purgatory, not of hell or of salvation. The above description fits very nicely with the Catholic (and biblical) concept of purgatory. We "owe God a righteous life"; not in order to be saved (as both Protestants and Catholics agree that we can be saved while still possessing actual sinfulness and less than perfect sanctity), but in order to (already saved) enter heaven, where no sin is allowed (Rev 21:27; implied also by the tenor and content of Isaiah 6:1-8, where the prophet Isaiah comes in contact with God).
...
7) Tertullian wrote around 212 A.D., concerning this passage:
. . . it is most fitting that the soul, without waiting for the flesh, be punished for what it did without the partnership of the flesh . . . if we understand that prison of which the Gospel speaks to be Hades, and if we interpret the last farthing to be the light offense which is to be expiated
there before the resurrection, no one will doubt that the soul undergoes some punishments in Hades, without prejudice to the fullness of the resurrection, after which recompense will be made through the flesh also.
(The Soul, 58,1)
Fw: [catholicACT] NT Scriptures Pointing To PURGATORY
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm (related topic: Indulgence)
----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Tan Yew Hock
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: [catholicACT] NT Scriptures Pointing To PURGATORY
Scriptural evidence for PURGATORY is overwhelming, for those who care to reflect upon the following verses. The evidence is that apart from the ETERNAL heaven and ETERNAL hell, there is a state of NON-ETERNAL afterlife where there is greater or lesser punishment, or purification through preaching or sufferings.
[Scripture verses in King James Version (KJV) unless otherwise stated]
1 Peter 3:18-19 ¶ For Christ ...being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (cf. 1 Peter 3:18-19 above)
1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? [ cf. 1 Cor 3:15 (below) "saved...as by fire"]
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect [the process of perfecting in PURGATORY, but perfected now in heaven (cf. 1 Peter 3:19 above)]
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Matthew 12:36-37 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
[(1 Cor 15:29-32) baptized for the dead i.e. Do penance: undergo sufferings for Christ (1 Cor 15:30,32), or "to die daily" (1 Cor 15:31), on behalf of the dead.
The "baptism" Jesus had to go through is sufferings, including crucification.
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Read also Romans 6:1-12, which correlates baptism and "to be dead unto sin" (v.11), or to be crucified with Christ in the flesh (v.6) (cf. Gal 2:20, 5:24, 6:14 about being crucified with Christ)]
James 3:1 (KJV) ¶ My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. [ implicit - there is lesser condemnation ]
James 3:1 (RSV) ¶ Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness. [Surely, "we who teach" includes the NT writer James himself who will be saved??]
Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out [v. 24 from the prison] thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. [cf. 1 Peter 3:19 "spirits in prison" above)]
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [ greater and lesser punishments ]
Matthew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. (cf. Matthew 6:15 (NIV) For if you do noy forgive men their sins, you Father will not forgive your sins.)
Matthew 7:1 ¶ Judge not, that ye be not judged. Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. [ greater and lesser punishments ]
--
Since most of us will have sins in our life on the death bed, we will not go straight to heaven even though we are saved.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [heaven] any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in
fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of
saints.
fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of
saints.
Matthew 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Fw: [catholicACT] post purgatory dialogue
----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Tan Yew Hock
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: [catholicACT] post purgatory dialogue
Dorothy, Matthew and all,
Just to follow-up on the verses quoted by the other Matthew.
Heb 10:10 "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ
once for all."
It appears that "we" refer to everyone who has been baptised, as shown in the following verses.
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:14 "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."
However, here the emphasis is the "single offering", that is the "once-for-all" sacrifice, which is also the emphasis of the chapters from Hebrew 7 and 10. "Once-for-all" sacrifice completes the sanctification "for all times". The verse surely cannot be applied to living christians, since none of us is "made perfect" yet. The author is probably referring to the Saints he described in Chapter 11. The OT saints were being "made perfect" as they passed from earthly pilgrimage, through death, and on to heaven. This outcome is mentioned in Hebrew 12:32 as "the spirits of just men made perfect".
Heb 12:32 "and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect," 'Firstborn' are those who are saints; they go directly to heaven. 'Made perfect' are those who needs to undergo purification process of 'purgatory'.
--
In addition to,
1 Pet 3:18~20 "18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water."
we can also mention
1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
David Currie's is a good book. Strongly recommended.
I also recommend "Surprise by Truth" series (Vol 1, 2, 3).
As for Martin Luther, why would you like to read his works? Even the Protestants today are not reading his books !!! The information given by Catholic apologists should be sufficient for your purpose, unless you want to be a scholar on Luther.
Fw: [catholicACT] Refuting Protestant Scriptures Against PURGATORY
----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Tan Yew Hock
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 3:21 AM
Subject: [catholicACT] Refuting Protestant Scriptures Against PURGATORY
Arguments Against Purgatory Considered
THE SPURIOUS ARGUMENTS AGAINST PURGATORY
by Kevin Tierney
Purgatory and the Bible
... So we DO "need to be purified" according to Scripture (cf. Mal 3:2-3; 1 Peter 1:6-9; 1 Cor 3:12-15; Hebrews 12:29), and Christ's one sacrifice is the application of that final purification and sanctification necessary for heaven -- which Catholics call "purgatory."
“When those in Christ die, they are automatically in heaven.”
There is no evidence in Scripture of the infamous mantra “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (some say it is implied in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 which actually reads: "we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord" -- RSV). There is often desire to be away from the body and be with Christ, but what believer wouldn’t desire this? Desiring something is not the same as automatically attaining it. And again, being that the Church does not teach a specific time limit in purgatory, and being time on Earth and time in Heaven and eternity are two different things, this objection does not remove the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
"We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." - 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far" - Philippians 1:21-23
Again, how one reads here "once you are dead you are automatically in heaven" I don’t know. Both passages suggest desires ("would prefer to be" and "I desire to..."), not absolute affirmative statements. I desire to be a millionaire, does that mean I am one or will necessarily be one? Of course not. This is faulty logic, and cannot be used to refute purgatory, at least not successfully.
“Even when the apostle Paul knew he was imperfect (Philippians 3:12), he knew he would go to be with the Lord when he died (Philippians 1:21-23).”
This is another common misconception of purgatory, that it’s somehow some middle ground. I don’t understand how this verse refutes purgatory. People can rely so heavily on a verse, and attempt to interpret it many ways, all not understanding what the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is. Everyone in purgatory is going to heaven. Just like those who were in Abraham’s bosom such as Noah, Abel, etc (Hebrews 11) were going to heaven, so are those in purgatory. To see this as having any affect on purgatory is to set up and knock down a straw man.
Fw: [catholicACT] a protestant point of homosexual
----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Tan Yew Hock
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: [catholicACT] a protestant point of homosexual
I believe many people are uneducated/uninformed about homosexuality issue. I am one of them, until only recently.
Perhaps an interview transcript of a psychiatrist intensely involved in such issues may be helpful.
The psychiatrist Spitzer is a serious researcher. He was instrumental for leading the American Psychiatrist Association to drop homosexuality from the list of mental illness to be treated. He interviewed about 200 homosexuals who have "substantially" - but not "completely" - changed their sexual orientations. "Complete" change is unusual even for those who have had "substantial" change. I hope this article will be of help to your protestant friend, and for those who are unsympathetic to homosexuals.
Note that a homosexual can be "heterosexually" married. (The Anglican gay bishop was "heterosexually" married before.) However, when the husband wish to engage in sex with his wife, HE CAN BE SEXUALLY AROUSED NOT BY HIS WIFE but by fantasizing with somebody of the same sex. You can read about this in
Spitzer's article here. (I think it is important to read carefully what he wrote, and be careful not to claim what he didn't claim.)
The American Psychiatrist Association (APA) position statements are found here:
Please note that this is a christian web site which advocates change of sexual orientation for those homosexuals who desire such change. Also note the web address uses the term "christianmentalhealth".
More articles here: http://www.christianmentalhealth.com/homosexuality.htm
----- Original Message -----From: tan gerardSent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 11:35 PMSubject: [catholicACT] a protestant point of homosexualDear all,I know this topic has been discussed for quite a long while but please bear with me a little. It's just a short encounter with a protestant- to share with you.Recenty, I've met a protestant during my course of work. During some small talk, he began to talk about the the consecration of openly gay Bishop V. Gene Robinson. In his church's opinion, this homosexual beings are all supposed and definitely going to be punished by the law of the Lord. The reasons being they have defied against God's will of natural law whether they are involved in sexual acts or not, and that God will never create homosexuals. If these people are not punished on earth, they will definitely going to be punished spiritually by God.I've tried to tell him that if these people tried to engage in undesirable sexual acts, they are indeed committing a sin. If given a chance would anyone want to be a gay/leabian? They may have their problems or maybe living in misery. There maybe many factors that constitued these people to behave in this way. They may need our love and care. If these people are practising the correct christian virtues and are not involved in sexual activity, God may not definitely going to punish them. We should give them a peace of mind for they may not be harmful people. Who knows they may be contributing plenty to the society? We shouldn't condem them....but regardless of my explanation, he still stands firm in his point that they must be punished.I'm quite flabbergasted with his teachings for he insisted that homosexuals must be punished. He attends the 'church' at the Rock, Suntec City.God blessGerard Tan
Fw: [catholicACT] a protestant point of homosexual
----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Tan Yew Hock
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 1:59 AM
Subject: Re: [catholicACT] a protestant point of homosexual
The following is extracted from the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) website:
PASTORAL CARE FOR SAME-GENDER ATTRACTED INDIVIDUALS
...
Ministry Should Include Those
Not Acting on their Attractions
Not Acting on their Attractions
It is especially important that we find a way to provide resources and offer support for those who are struggling with this issue, but have never acted out sexually. One way to begin the process is by providing education to our religious communities. The drive for same-gender intimacy is one that is very much a part of who we are as individuals. The fact that it becomes sexualized for some, reflects an abnormal variant of this natural and healthy need for personality development and human fulfillment. The process of reducing or eliminating unwanted same-gender attractions must involve not just a choice of the will, but a process that can take many years. What can be especially helpful is a support system which is understanding, non-judgmental, and willing to protect the privacy of those willing to openly share their personal struggles.
Degree of Change Varies
From Individual to Individual
From Individual to Individual
It has been shown that for many people, the complete elimination of same-gender attractions will never be a reality. The moral and theological concerns we have must address this reality. Even Scripture withholds the fulfillment of its promise of perfection until the final coming of God's Kingdom. Following is a typical response that is given to clients when they ask if orientation change will take place as a result of receiving reparative therapy, as reported by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi:
"Of those who enter therapy, one-third experience no change (typically, they decide to leave therapy within the first few months); one-third learn the skills and achieve the self-insight to experience a significant reduction in the intensity and frequency of their homosexual attractions; and one-third overcome their homosexuality, with same-sex attractions no longer being a significant issue in their lives. The latter group is that which is most likely to move on to a long-term heterosexual relationship or marriage."
The goal of pastoral care and religious community support should be aimed at improvement of the individual's quality of life, the alleviation of self-destructive lifestyle activities, and providing a loving and caring community within which the individual can be open and honest about their struggle.
Next, we must recognize that while prayer and attempts at "faith healing by divine intervention" can be a useful tool and have some positive results, those results are often not instantaneous. For many, the process is a long road with many obstacles to overcome along the way. In this regard, we must be willing to accept these limitations and not abandon or condemn those who cannot realize complete change. Instead, we must continue to be a source of loving ministry to them. It is my hope and prayer that some day we can offer ministries in every religious community which will provide longterm, loving care and understanding for those who struggle with same-gender attractions.
Rev. / Chaplain Kent L. Svendsen
[Catholic] Church Urges Voter Reaction on Same-Sex Marriage
Church Urges Voter Reaction on Same-Sex Marriage
BOSTON, Massachusetts, JUNE 15, 2004 (Zenit.org).- The Massachusetts Catholic Conference is sending letters to the state's 710 parishes urging the faithful to ''share their profound disappointment" with lawmakers who did not vote to ban homosexual marriage.
The mailings, issued by the lobbyist for the state's Catholic bishops, also prodded Catholics to offer their ''highest praise" for lawmakers who opposed homosexual marriage during this spring's Constitutional Convention, the Boston Globe reported today.
The letters made no reference to Election Day, Nov. 2, when all 200 seats in the state House and Senate are up for grabs. The mailings did not endorse particular lawmakers.
ZE04061523
BOSTON, Massachusetts, JUNE 15, 2004 (Zenit.org).- The Massachusetts Catholic Conference is sending letters to the state's 710 parishes urging the faithful to ''share their profound disappointment" with lawmakers who did not vote to ban homosexual marriage.
The mailings, issued by the lobbyist for the state's Catholic bishops, also prodded Catholics to offer their ''highest praise" for lawmakers who opposed homosexual marriage during this spring's Constitutional Convention, the Boston Globe reported today.
The letters made no reference to Election Day, Nov. 2, when all 200 seats in the state House and Senate are up for grabs. The mailings did not endorse particular lawmakers.
ZE04061523
Anglican Inquiry Report on Consecration of Gay Bishop
Ecumenical News International
News Highlights
22 October 2004
News Highlights
22 October 2004
Africa's Anglican bishops to meet in Nigeria on homosexuality
issue
Lagos/New York/London (ENI). Nigerian Anglican Archbishop Peter
Akinola has condemned a response to an Anglican Communion report
concerning the ordination of an openly homosexual bishop, as
wholly inadequate and is going ahead with a meeting of the
continents' bishops as the issue remains hotly debated. Akinola
made his statement on the Nigerian church's Web site attacking
the Windsor Report, released by the Anglican Communion in London.
[745 words, ENI-04-0701]
issue
Lagos/New York/London (ENI). Nigerian Anglican Archbishop Peter
Akinola has condemned a response to an Anglican Communion report
concerning the ordination of an openly homosexual bishop, as
wholly inadequate and is going ahead with a meeting of the
continents' bishops as the issue remains hotly debated. Akinola
made his statement on the Nigerian church's Web site attacking
the Windsor Report, released by the Anglican Communion in London.
[745 words, ENI-04-0701]
News Highlights
18 October 2004
Anglican inquiry calls US bishops to account for gay consecration
London (ENI). An Anglican commission of inquiry has urged those
who consecrated an actively gay man, V. Gene Robinson, to stay
away from international meetings of the communion until the
Episcopal Church, USA has "expressed its regret" for the action.
The call was made by the Lambeth Commission, which on 18 October
published its findings after a year-long inquiry into the
controversy surrounding Robinson*s election as bishop of New
Hampshire in the United States, as well as a rite of blessing for
same-sex unions in the diocese of New Westminster, Canada. [589
words, ENI-04-0688]
Divided US Episcopals both accept parts of Anglican report
New York (ENI). Frank T. Griswold, the presiding bishop of the
Episcopal Church, USA, reacted cautiously Monday to conclusions
by an Anglican Communion commission seeking to find a way of
preventing a schism over the consecration of homosexual clergy.
But Griswold's reaction was also seen as re-affirming his
denomination's consecration of V. Gene Robinson as the church's
only openly gay bishop, which drew criticism from traditionalist
members of the Anglican Communion, opposing the consecration of
homosexual clergy. [576 words, ENI-04-0690]
[ For details of subscriptions to the full ENI News Service, which
contains full text articles, contact ENI at the address below. majordomo@info.wcc-coe.org
ENI Online - www.eni.ch ]
Failure of "Safe Sex" - STD diseases increase 30% in four years
More readings on this blog:
----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Tan Yew Hock
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: [catholicACT] The Massive Failure of "Safe Sex"
----- Original Message -----From: Matthew Tan Yew HockSent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 5:49 AMSubject: [catholicACT] The Massive Failure of "Safe Sex"GENEVA, May 11 - The World Health Organization says in its annual report, due next week, that AIDS was the leading single cause of death worldwide for people ages 15 to 59. In 2003, three million people died of AIDS and five million people were infected with H.I.V., the agency reported.
